what’s going on guys Patrick here
bringing you a brand new videotape we
got another kill video for you guys full
of information today we’re gonna be
talking about what the heck bitcoin is
doing on the charts where I’ll be
talking about a global banking giant
being bullish on XRP most tons of other
news that went on in the cryptocurrency
space but guys before we get start with
that if you’re interested making money
trading crypto currencies make sure you
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description or the first link in the
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nice games for everyone over there
happen in just a few days not bad right
now I’m gonna move my head let’s jump
into some Bitcoin technical analysis
alright guys we are back now I’m zoomed
out a little bit more than I usually am
and the reason for that as you can tell
I have a dotted line drawn at roughly
$8,500 now the reason I wanted to draw
this line is because I see a lot of
people start already entering Long’s
here for Bitcoin to shoot up now you
might be successful but look at what
happened on bitcoins hourly chart this
is the hourly chart I don’t usually go
to the hourly chart look at the wick
that came in now a lot of people myself
included were any long position a
shorter term long position not waiting
for a breakout short term long position
that hit stop-loss with this gigantic
wick was a manipulation who knows
exactly right I do know there is a lot
of manipulation that goes on in this
market but I wanted to highlight that
this wick right here wiped out a lot of
people’s positions when they had a
stop-loss is set and things like this
happen a lot in crypto so people who are
already bullish on breaking out here I
personally and I recommend waiting for a
confirmed breakout if you want to play
it safe you want to play a high risk and
then by all means do whatever way you
want but if you want to play it safe
for a confirmation I talk more about
this in every single video previous to
this basically so I don’t want to go
through it too much again though if we
do you know wait for the confirm break
of this line over here the resistance
then watch for our higher levels of
roughly ten thousand eight hundred
eleven thousand dollars break above that
and I think we’re good to go
I think bitcoins going up to 12,000
13,000 and it could be a very very
profitable trade but until we have that
break Bitcoin is still in this triangle
and it hasn’t had any form of
confirmation as of yet Bitcoin actually
to me looks a little more bearish at the
time of recording this video and all
that might change looks a little more
bearish for the week than bullish and
that’s why I highlighted this down
target right here $8,500 if we break
below this level I’m going to be
watching for Bitcoin again not jumping
in too early but if we do break below
this resistance of this support that we
have right here
I do believe Bitcoin has a good chance
of dropping down to the high eight
thousands maybe even to $8,500
don’t be the bearer of bad news I just
want to make sure everyone is realistic
in the approach and knows both sides I
saw a great quote that said that
predictions are for egos and I could not
with that statement Bitcoin and
predictions are for egos because no one
really knows what’s going on in the
market it is best to have both case
scenarios in the short-term you can be
trading obviously in areas like this I
told you guys we’ve been scooping up
under we’ve been entering long selling
higher entering short it’s been working
very very well all that is fine but if
you are waiting for a bigger move in
more midterm or long-term move wait for
confirmation wait for an actual clear
sign that that’s the direction we are
going before you enter any position just
to be safe because you could enter along
here and Bitcoin might go boom and then
bounce straight off which is not
something that would shock me if we do
come down in the next week or so and
then shoot right back up after that keep
that in mind
just wanted to share that with you guys
give you guys a little bit of a
realistic approach but let’s enough
talking about bearish news let’s talk
about some bullish news we actually have
a lot of bullish things coming out one
of them is Bitcoin is still the best
performing asset in history and this
stock to flow model which I want to
share with you guys has been very
accurate this is from Plan B on Twitter
it’s been very accurate before it is a
model based off of a based off an
equation that is calculating the price
of Bitcoin and where exactly the
trajectory that it’s heading in now for
this to remain accurate and Bitcoin has
to be over $100,000 or has to hit
100,000 keep in mind look how accurate
it’s been until now right for this to
continue to be accurate $100,000 before
the year 2022 so by December 2021 again
that is two years out but for the gains
that are plugged potentially there it’s
not bad at all I’m sure you guys would
agree we can SH we should be having a
$100,000 Bitcoin before the Year 2022
now I want to know your guys have
thoughts on that following this mod you
guys can read more about how the model
equation is calculated and go to his
twitter getting full credit to him for
having use this a long time ago we’ve
been using this for several several
years and it’s been accurate until now
it’s not a guarantee if you said it’s
not a guarantee it is simply a potential
outcome it’s simply a prediction no
guarantee whatsoever but let me know
your guys thoughts of a $100,000 Bitcoin
before the year 2021 or before the year
leave that in the comments down below
right now I’d love to know what you guys
think looking at the overall market
though really quick just over a two
hundred and sixty two billion dollar
mark at Bitcoin dominance starting to
steady off a little bit again bitcoins
down 0.84% in the last 24 hours
but if we saw the wick that I showed you
guys that happened right Bitcoin dropped
a significant amount and shot right back
up buyers bottom right back up you know
manipulation whatever it is you want to
call it there’s a bit of both in the
market at all times there’s if you
believe there’s no manipulation you’re
kind of delusional in this market but
also of course there are tons of buyers
so keep that in mind it’s always a good
mix of both biggest gainer of the day no
clue who this is but energy stay tuned
when we talk about energy towards the
end of the video eight point seven six
percent gain crip terraeum waves
Tasos up very a good amount as well and
then we’ve scrolled down you’ll see just
a little bit of green definitely more
red in the market xmax down eleven point
two three percent rain is down under ten
Aurora metaphor 0x after performing very
well is also down 7.28 percent now back
launched live they were live 802 p.m.
Eastern Time was the first back to
bitcoins future trade that was executed
so again a positive start for back for
everyone who’s been waiting for that to
it’s finally here in terms of a direct
effect on the price if anything it just
caused a huge wick to the downside on
the hourly chart and that was it one
huge wake other than that prices being
relatively steady not sure about time
you’re watching this video I recorded
this three hours early because I’m busy
towards the time that would regularly
look to record this video so hopefully
not too much this change and the
information is still valid but that is
really cool to see obviously for
everyone who’s been waiting for back
they launched with 18 BTC traded in the
first few hours by now it is
significantly higher might be almost
double that I believe but don’t quote me
on that it’s going to continue to grow
obviously as we go on and more in terms
of bullish news this is a little bit
more of a conservative prediction I
believe to counter our $100,000 but they
could both be true now this from Willie
rule on Twitter a cheat sheet map of
where we are in this bull market
according to on chain metrics now these
are both using you know mathematical
equations this is using the on chain
metrics mathematical equation is what
you know Wall Street uses for its BOTS
it’s all these type of it’s all math
basically right it’s all math and
obviously artificial intelligence comes
in as well but that’s a lot more fancy
you know we’re closing up and we’re
closing up the opening act of the bull
market and awaiting the middle bull
market to commence to give you guys an
idea what exactly it’s looking at we are
in this range where it traded relatively
sideways but you’ll notice there were
dips that came in there were dips that
came in at this level and that could tie
in perfectly with what I was telling you
guys before of us potentially seeing a
dip from Bitcoin down to maybe the high
8000 not saying it’s gonna happen I’m
not entering a short until we see a
confirmation because it’s a very very
risky it’s a very very risky potential
outcome I just want to highlight the
possibility now again from this chart we
should be seeing by December this year
December 2019 a $20,000 Bitcoin moving
on from there into early next year
getting towards the having we should be
seeing a 25 to 30 to 30
$5,000 Bitcoin now this again is leading
up to the having the next prediction we
talked about the 100,000 when we talked
about before was by the before the Year
2022 so in theory we could have all of
this happen but you’ll notice where we
are in the Bulls cycle again according
to on chain metrics and you can see what
happened after that there were still
dips in the market keep that in mind
it’s not just one straight shoot with
one straight shot up to the moon right
that’s not exactly how it worked but you
can tell that after this after this
period usually what happens is we have a
nice little rally to hit new all-time
highs and that’s something I’m very very
excited for now a global banking giant
said that XRP ledger is a potential
game-changer this is a newly discovered
institutional grade report from banking
giant hsbc they’ve labeled XRP ledger as
a potential game-changer that could help
cut across corporate boundaries and
existing market structures the exact
quote was DLT can streamline end-to-end
term value transfer reducing costs
operational risk and settlement periods
for example ripples XRP ledger provides
real-time cross-border settlements using
tokens that represent central bank
currencies pretty good news for XRP if I
may say so myself course this is talking
about the XRP ledger everybody has a
different opinion on Ripple I hold some
ripples so naturally I am excited when
good news and big people talk about it
you don’t hold Ripple then you probably
don’t care unless you’re one of those
people that just likes to dislike what
other people have and what you don’t
have we got plenty of those in the world
too so it’s a little bit you know we got
a wide diversity of people in the
cryptocurrency space but that’s good
news for XRP right there want to catch
you guys up on some XRP a bullish news
all right guys so thank you to all of
you who have stayed all the way until
this point in the video we actually have
a sponsor before we do the giveaway that
I want to mention really quick now this
is energy or the ticker symbol and RG
this a cryptocurrency ranked number 67
on coin mark cap with a market cap of
just under 88 million dollars so it’s a
lot bigger than some of the ones you
guys might have been used to seeing and
that’s one of the reasons I’m very
excited to share some with you so bear
with me if you can see by the price
currently they’re up at just under 9
percent of 8.75% today so it’s a great
to be making a video about this
cryptocurrency currently set at three
dollars and seventy eight cents and as
you can tell from when it got started
from the you know the return on
investment from the beginning is already
up a good amount so if you got into this
one early if you heard about them before
I’ve heard about them for some time then
congratulations you’re up a good amount
if not and you’re interested in picking
some up you can actually get some on
coin exchange and get some on cool coin
or you can get some on digi Phenix now
digi Phenix is the most volume I’m not
as familiar with this exchange obviously
I’m a lot more familiar with cool coin
they have over a hundred thousand
dollars in twenty four-hour volume there
so not bad I would stick to these two as
everything else is really low in terms
of volume in the 24 hours of time period
and it’s not very good for liquidity so
if you’re looking a picks them up or
even if you’re looking to sell some
definitely would stick to these top two
and the BTC pairing available for those
they have this theory for coup point but
again like I said not worth it very very
low liquidity right guys so moving on to
their website really simply their goal
is to be the world’s leading
cryptocurrency with a unification of
smart contracts governance and self
funding Treasury to ensure longevity and
enable rapid growth you guys want to
check out this video I thought it was
really cool make sure you do go ahead
and check that out it’s two minutes long
though so I don’t want to bore you with
the video in this clip now exactly what
they are like I said they’re scalable
there’s self funding cryptocurrency they
want to become the world’s leading
cryptocurrency they are a coin not a
token they’ve had no IC o—- and
they’ve had no pre mine instead what
they decided to do is dispersed NRG
coins to people in the community through
earned job so that’s something really
cool as well
they’ve been live since April 2018 and
they are planning in q4 they’re going to
transition to a smart contract platform
that is q4 2019 so it’s coming up very
shortly so that’s definitely something
to look forward to as well if you are an
investor now recently they’ve also
transitioned from proof of work to proof
of stake that happened in February 20
1962 happens then they got listed on Koo
coin which we talked about on the
exchanges if you look at their road map
everything they’ve been able to do from
now like I said they launched April 2018
but that wasn’t where the project
started they obviously had to implement
things they had to get started with
things a lot in advance you can see ever
since q3 20s
17 they have on the RoMac this is
everything that’s completed this is
where we are right now they have energy
a 3.0 coming out and several other
things coming out in 2019 even 2020 and
then they have stuff going on after the
coming years energy seeks to retain
thousands of full-time contributors and
function as a powerful global
organization unlike anything seen in the
cryptocurrency space energy will
continue to expand marketing efforts
development and ease of use to rapidly
increase demand and adoption so again
that’s the road map coming up they also
want to fill out the team put the right
people in the right place which is
obviously something very very important
when it comes to their team right now
they do have a strong team if you guys
go look at the video they have a strong
team in terms of development marketing
everything that’s going on so far and a
good team for leadership but they are
still trying to fill out all the areas
find the best people to put in the right
places which of course is 99% of what
makes a project successful is the team
and the people involved so it’s
definitely gonna be interesting to keep
up with that and see what exactly they
have going on and how their team looks
and continues to grow in the near future
now one thing they really want to
highlight as well is their treasury
system their treasury system according
to them is these strongest out there in
the crypto community and I’m gonna throw
up a graphic that they have made and
they sent over for us to compare theirs
versus some of the other ones let’s say
– for example now the overall philosophy
is that every dollar we invested into
the system will yield much more than a
dollar of value back when invested
appropriately with developers the best
marketing efforts and other expenditures
that expand our reach their overall goal
with the Treasury is to have a system in
place to help protect their user base
from scammers and hackers that think
that’s really cool cuz as you can tell
the crypto space especially with newer
projects that is a big issue and a lot
of people still to this day are falling
to a lot of scams and something that I
absolutely hate to see so I am glad to
see them fighting against that and I
hope that continues to work out in their
favor and last thing but not least what
I always love to do check the crypto
stats they have thirty one point five
thousand followers on Twitter with some
pretty solid engagement compared to some
of the other cryptocurrency projects
we’ve seen they definitely have a lot
more engagement than we’ve seen
elsewhere so that’s really cool to see
you guys hopefully you did enjoyed this
little clip hopefully you did enjoy our
sponsorship and now let’s run into the
giveaway let’s see
who wins in the giveaway for the free
one on one call with myself let’s take a
look at the winner the winner david
johnson keep buying naturally I’ve seen
David say he’s been buying for a long
long time so at this point I expect you
got a lot of crypto I know you’re also
next RP fence so a great tie-in there
with the XR P bullish news and you
winning the giveaway but guys thank you
so much for watching I’ll see you guys
on Wednesday for another video
Grant Williams: All right.
Josh Crumb, co-founder and chief strategy
officer of Goldmoney.
Josh Crumb: Thank you.
Good to be back.
You and I keep bumping into each other in
It was Toronto last time.
And then we bumped into each other in Hong
Kong a couple of months ago, right?
And now New York.
And here we are in New York.
I wanted to bring you back and talk with you
because you and I had sat in a coffee shop
in Hong Kong, just had a fascinating conversation.
And I really want to get the chance to kind
of pick over it with you for Real Vision audience.
And so you and Roy have been on before.
There’s a great think piece that the two of
you did previously.
People should go back and watch that and find
out a little bit about the background.
Could you give us the quick and dirty for
those of you that haven’t seen it.
And then we’re gonna talk about religion.
Yeah, that’s probably the best way to start
I’ll try not to say the G word for the first
15 minutes of the interview.
Well, you’re OK with the four-letter G word.
It’s the three-letter G word.
Just leave that out of it.
So I can say God.
I just can’t say Gold– Shh.
Well, we’ll continue.
So give us the really quick background, just
so people get a sense of where you come from.
And then we’ll go down some path or other.
So I’m an engineer by background.
So naturally, not that good on camera or any
So if I start wandering and the complexity
of my head’s not coming out right– I’ll rein
–just bring me back.
But yeah, so I have an engineering background.
I also have an economics background.
And I came from doing– well, quantitative
political risk was actually my Master’s work,
and how you try to quantitate political risks,
particularly in the extractive resource sector.
And for me, I’m, I guess in general, more
of just a systems guy, whether it’s financial
systems, geologic systems, economic systems.
Me and my co-founder and CEO, Roy Sebag, were
just those annoying kids that just keep asking
Like, why does that work?
Just never accepting the given answer or the
So my background is really engineering, worked
in the mining industry, and then I worked
at Goldman Sachs.
So try not to hold that against me.
But I was the senior metal strategist in the
global economics department.
So I looked at the way things like copper
and gold moved relative to, obviously, oil
and the rest of the commodities, but also
macroeconomics and fixed income macro assets
So I guess that’s my bias and background.
And so thanks to the complete lack of any
political risk out there today, this is a
great area for you to be in, right?
So you and I sit and chat in Hong Kong.
And we get around to talking about religion.
But we’re talking about religion as relates
to the precious metals complex.
And both of us, I think, struggle with the
same question, which is what is it that people
have against gold?
What is the visceral revulsion to it?
And that’s how I actually usually try to start,
whether I’m talking to mainstream media or–
I try to defuse this religious tone of, like,
we want to debate the theories of money.
We want to debate the view of whether it has
value or not, subjective, objective, the money
All of these issues, you can debate them theoretically
all you want.
But the way that I came to gold was actually
through that path of not really understanding
or not liking gold because of the same religious
context of does it have value?
Objectively, it does.
So I came to it realizing, OK, no matter what
people are saying, there’s a market.
And this is what the market is telling us.
So if you look at the market as it’s telling
us, then you have to figure out why.
So you see the correlations.
You see the price movements.
And you’re always comparing relative assets.
Gold has this particular path and performance.
We know that it doesn’t pay yields, and it
doesn’t do anything.
If you hold gold for 100 years, it’s still
just gonna be an ounce or a gram of gold.
That’s the old Warren Buffett adage.
But actually, that’s probably one of the most
important things to understand, is after 100
years, you’ll still have an ounce of gold.
Tell me one other asset in the economy which
is the same.
Even if you have an ounce of copper, is it
the same 100 years from now?
Certainly if you have a loaf of bread, it’s
not going to be the same 100 days from now.
If you have a company, it’s likely not going
to be the same 100 years from now.
So that quality of actually lasting is actually
one of the most important qualities.
And so this is the first thing that you kind
of have to figure out.
And this is what sort of Roy Sebag– Roy and
I both came from these questions from very
different perspectives, him being in finance
and a real Warren-Buffett-trained value investor
and trying to understand the fundamentals
of value and why things get off the path of
And then I came from an engineering systems
And I tried to understand the macro economy–
so he’s very micro.
I’m very macro– and trying to understand
how these major, complex systems work to create
But what Roy came to in his analysis was the
physics of gold.
He ultimately reconciled, through a microsystem,
that gold is going to be the same 100 years
from now because of the physics.
It’s this one element out of the periodic
table that seems to resists entropy.
So that’s kind of the way he came to it.
And so I think that’s where we have to start
with, is just the fundamental truths that
you can’t question.
Well, so let’s talk about those truths because
you spend a lot of time talking to people
who understand it.
And they accept those truths for what they
But naturally, you also speak to a lot of
people who are skeptical or downright displeased
And neither you or I are trying to convert
I just think it’s a very interesting conversation.
There will be people watching this who are
There’ll be people watching it who hate gold.
So I would love to just have this discussion.
Pick a side.
It doesn’t really matter to me.
But I just think it’s an interesting discussion
to have just because of the different ways
that people come at it.
So when you talk to people who think gold’s
a worthless pet rock, what’s generally the
view that you get thrown at?
Yeah, it’s a great question.
I think the pet rock view is that somehow,
we’re hoarding and wasting opportunity to
be investing or doing something else.
And I think there’s two aspects to that.
There’s the investor that wants an outsized
And they tend to forget that risk and return
are typically two sides of the same coin.
And then the different side is the economic
doctrine crowd, which hates the gold standard
and wants to be able to control the economy
through some sort of mathematical levers and
be able to control it.
So they don’t like gold because it’s a system
they don’t believe they can control.
Whereas the investor doesn’t like gold just
doesn’t like the boring returns or the fact
that it doesn’t do anything.
So there’s no real story to tell around it.
I think those are probably, if I’m gonna read
One of the stories I like to tell– again,
getting back to the objective reality versus
the theoretical views or debates– is I was
having a conversation with a European Central
And he basically said– again, right when
I introduced myself, I said I’m from Goldmoney.
And again, the religious alarm bells go off.
And it’s like, oh, I have my views on gold.
And I think my– I don’t know.
I was just particularly confrontational that
And I just told them right back, you know
You That’s great.
There’s a market that has a view right back.
It’s called price.
And so whatever your views are, there’s a
That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Did he go into what his views were, or did
you not actually have that conversation?
You can’t go very far down the track.
You start quoting all these theories and doctrines
and mathematical models.
But again, you’re just, just kind put that
Let’s get back to what money is supposed to
be– store a value, medium of exchange, and
the unit of account.
And I’ll kind of go through all of them.
But the very first objective metric when it
comes to valuation is store a value.
So let’s look backwards.
We can’t do anything about looking forwards,
Maybe Elon Musk will solve that.
But looking backwards, what we do know is
that gold works as a store of value back to
the– we’ll put that aside a second.
9.13 But we did a report for Back to the Futures.
Marty McFly, 30 years from 1985 to 2015.
And of course, during that time in 2015, there
was all sorts of talks about hoverboards and
automatically lacing shoes and all of the
different predictions- – Cubs winning the
All of these things were happening in speculation
in the media.
But people forget there’s a few other concepts
like money and the $50 for a bottle of Pepsi.
So we actually looked– how did money actually
change during that 30-year time period?
What did price levels change during that 30-year
And we basically gave Marty three options.
He could take an ounce of gold with him in
the DeLorean into the future.
He could take a $100 bill.
Or he could let money compound in a bank account
for 30 years.
And what does he have at the end of 30 years?
So again, this isn’t theory.
This is what objectively happened looking
And what we found is if you measure– so we
started with the Big Mac Index, The Economist’s
famous index for prices and currency values
around the world.
And we looked at the Big Mac Index through
So if Marty brought his dollars, he could
only buy one third of a Big Mac 30 years from
If he let money compound in a bank account
for 30 years, this socalled management by
central banks of the store of value, he would
have got– let’s say he didn’t even have to
pay tax on interest.
Remember we used to have interest?
And so if he let it compound for 30 years,
he would have got about– I can’t remember
the exact numbers, but it was, like, 89% of
that Big Mac he would have got back.
And then if he would have used gold, gram
for gram, he could have bought the Big Mac.
So we’re like, OK.
Well, that’s very much a commodity good.
So as a store of value, a Big Mac for gold,
it works the test of time.
Let’s go through other aspects of the movie,
other aspects of the economy.
And we went from, like, his pickup truck,
which, obviously, there’s a lot of IP.
There’s a lot of engineering.
There’s a lot of manufacturing.
But at the end of the day, a pickup truck
or white goods, there’s still a big bulk commodity
component to it.
His Toyota pickup truck 30 years in the future,
Measured in gold, same math when it comes
to the dollar.
Buy a third of a truck.
Same math when it comes to compounding interest
in a bank account for 30 years.
And then we get all the way down to a pure
service economy, like a movie ticket.
You know the 3D Jaws from the movie.
And if you look at the movie ticket over 30
years– everyone complains about this, too.
It’s so expensive to go see a movie with a
Gram for gram, gold price, movie ticket, same
30 years later.
So we see objectively that the math, this
Now, will this work over a two-year time span,
a three-year, a five-year?
When you’re within an economic cycle, there’s
all sorts of backwardations, contangos.
There’s shortages and surpluses.
It’s information we’re always trying to refine
and figure out price levels.
So it doesn’t work on a short-term period.
But with gold, prices revert.
And a lot of the economics and models has
always believed in these mean reversions.
That’s why we take out volatile food and energy
prices from the CPI because when gold backed
money, it used to mean revert.
The problem is that doesn’t happen anymore.
So anyways, that’s another topic.
But one more story about this.
And we can pick all sorts of items in the
But one of my favorites was I was at a hedge
fund retreat, about a year ago from today.
A lot of my former Goldman colleagues.
Don’t use hedge fund and retreat in the same
sentence these days.
It’s just a bad connotation.
But the funny thing is we had a former Treasury
Secretary there that is one of the advisers
and talking about various things.
And even this crowd was complaining about
a $165 lift ticket at Vail.
And I said, you want to make a bet that measured
in gold, the lift ticket price is actually
the same as the day it opened?
So as I’m there, on Slack on my phone, I message
And he runs the numbers.
OK, so 1965, Vail opens.
$5 lift ticket.
Measured in dollars today, that’s $165 dollars.
So the math works.
And again, as you stretch it over time.
It doesn’t work within a cycle it works through
So the store of value in a function of money,
that’s checked off.
And I think, again, that’s back to the physics,
which we can or can’t go into later.
But the store value function works.
Medium of exchange, unit of account– anyways,
I’ll let you get some questions in.
No, listen, you keep going.
I always figure the less I talk, the more
value the viewers get.
So you keep talking.
So the medium and exchange and unit of account
functions– medium and exchange, I think,
is probably less important in today’s world,
particularly with technology.
Now there’s things like Bitcoin, which is
probably the world’s greatest medium of exchange
that’s ever been created, just absolutely
very, very interesting exchange technology.
It’s got different store of value functions.
Let’s put that aside for the second.
But the point is, in this economy, with so
much communication and all of these innovations
around medium of exchange– whether it’s the
paper check or the ATM machine, the Visa or
MasterCard networks, Paypal– all these are
not changes in money technology.
They’re the changes in how we message and
communicate a settlement or medium of exchange.
So I think the medium of exchange is less
important now as long as you can get liquidity
and fungibility in any currency.
I can take my Canadian credit card, spend
it here at a local merchant.
No one cares that it’s Canadian dollars.
No one cares if it’s Bitcoin backing it or
gold or maybe an ETF stock index.
And there’s companies trying to do that.
So the medium of exchange, as long as there’s
a settlement mechanism to go from one asset
to another, I think is less important role
of money in today’s economy.
The third one, unit of account– so again,
gold can be used as a medium of exchange objectively.
We do it at our company, Goldmoney.
We allow people to use gold as a transactional
And again, this is choice.
We’re not saying it’s going to be the only
Again, coming back to religion, there’s always
got to be this one right path.
It’s either got to be Federal Reserve, Central
It’s got to be Bitcoin or cryptocurrency or
gold, like one’s just gonna win.
We live in a world of choice and different
And they all have different utilities.
They all have different ways of working.
And so we just created gold to be a transactional
rail, as well.
And I think also interesting about that aspect
is I think still, if you go to seven billion
humans on planet Earth and try to settle a
trade, and you have the choice of any of these
mediums, I still think on an absolute population
number, more people will accept that gold
to settle a trade than anything else.
Obviously, that’s weighted towards India and
China and Southeast Asia.
But it’s medium of exchange function is not
And so that, I think, can be ruled out objectively.
The last one is the unit of account, which
I think we already talked about, as well,
in the store of value and how things revert
to the mean.
And I believe that’s actually, of the three
qualities of money, that’s probably the one
that gets the least time, is the measurement
But I think gold’s unit of account is probably
its strongest quality and probably the one
that the world needs more than anything right
now because we have this completely subjective,
manipulated measurement called fiat currencies,
which they used to have rules.
They used to have, we’re going to try to manage
them with the interest rate.
We’re going to try to control all the things
that we can control so they maintain their
store of value.
Just as good as gold, as I think Milton Friedman
once said with this new model.
Meanwhile, it’s lost 98% of its value since
But the unit of account is so important because
that’s the price when the physical economy
And that’s the invisible hand of the economy
that we want to be hearing what it’s saying.
If you go back to Adam Smith and moral sentiments
and what the invisible hand was all about,
it wasn’t trying to justify the moral view
What it was trying to say is there’s a moral
sentiment in humans that they’re gonna do
this no matter what system you try to force
So the invisible hand is a philosophy that
decentralization call it, using some more
It’s a philosophy that the decentralization
works, and it tells you something.
But if you don’t know how to measure it–
imagine trying to build a house that the unit
of inches or feet or meters or whatever changed
every board meeting of the Central Committee
And maybe to stimulate more construction,
we want to build buildings that are gonna
fall down faster, just can rebuild them.
So the central management of measurement is
going to change the unit of a meter every
month or every quarter.
That to me is a real problem because people
think their wage contract is $1.
They think that dollar is something universal
because it’s in the denominator of the equation–
price divided by the unit.
So if you don’t have a good unit of exchange,
all sorts of things go off track, which I
think is actually the core problem in our
entire economy and society right now.
But again, that’s another religious discussion.
But it’s interesting because this unit of
account thing– I want to dig into this deeper
because there’s two ways you can read that,
You can read it in a pure accounting way,
and you can read it as in holding somebody
And that to me is the reason why central banks
dislike gold, because it holds them to account,
to your point about what it does.
You have this unit of account.
And that’s arguably the most dangerous thing.
And there are 1,000 conspiracy theories about
Some of them are interesting.
Some of them are ludicrous.
Some of them it’s harder to argue, it’s really
difficult to argue that they’re not correct,
but you kind of have to do it anyway.
But it’s this antagonistic relationship between
central banks and gold that I find so fascinating
because of exactly what you’ve laid out just
It basically proves the damage that’s been
done to savers, to the middle class, to whoever
by fiat currency, by wholly fiat system.
So do you think, when you look through this
through your engineer’s eyes, you at it
through the eyes of your Goldmoney position,
do you see– what do you see the future looking
like in terms of gold’s role in a monetary
system which feels to me like it’s on its
I think whether we get some democratic consensus
that gold or Bitcoin or some other alternative
money is going to be the replacement, I think
the history is that inevitably, these fiat
currencies always fail.
It’s got a 100% track record of failure.
And again, this isn’t theory or belief.
I’m not trying to offend anybody.
That’s just what’s happened.
And so I think that yes, naturally, as more
people recognize these physics, these sort
of first principles qualities of gold, it’s
always because of that role.
It’s always going to have some reversion to
And whether that’s in a decentralized manner,
where people simply vote with their feet–
which is obviously our business model.
We’re not trying to force people on a gold
We’re not trying to force some sort of central
We’re just saying, gram for dollar, whose
product is better?
If the central banks want to have a better
product, have at it.
Build a better product.
But right now, you don’t.
You don’t have a better product for savers.
For someone that wants to borrow and has the
access to borrow, fiat’s great.
You actually get paid– so this is another
aspect of central banking that a lot of people
And you can easily see the inequality in our
economy because of this.
So if you’re rich, you get paid to use money.
You get airline points.
You get cash back.
As long as you can access credit and the unit
of that credit is decaying, you are getting
paid by the rest of society to use money.
And you get your free points.
You get to use it.
Meanwhile, if I’m paying cash, that merchants
paying 3% processing fees, which is going
back to pay you money.
So the cost of goods are higher.
So it’s a monetary waterfall.
The people closest to the center have less
purchasing power decay from the system.
They get paid to use money.
And then people at the bottom, who are just
wage earners, particularly if it’s cash, have
higher cost of goods, and they have to pay
to use money.
So the inequality’s built into the system,
whether they like it or not.
And so that to me is a big problem.
So getting back to the future of money, there’s
a lot of thought and a lot of writing about
the history of money.
But really, it’s kind of the future of money
that is important right now because we’ve
been through these regimes before.
I don’t think we’ve ever had a purely fiat
world monetary system, but we have one now.
But unfortunately, it’s the one that everybody
has spent their entire lives in, essentially.
And so this idea of a change of any sort from
that is such a huge leap for people to make,
which is perfectly understandable.
So when you have these conversations with
people, what’s the closest argument you’ve
ever heard that’s made you think, oh, you
He’s got a point.
Or have you not even got anywhere close to
I don’t think I’ve gotten close to that point.
Again, I think the future’s choice.
The future in just about every system seems
to be more complexity and more choice.
And whether it’s social values, whether it’s
goods on the shelf at a grocery market, whether
it’s investment products, choice and proliferation
and more complexity and chaos seems to be
the order of everything.
So I actually think that people that want
to legally and rationally and in some safe
system use gold or Bitcoin or dollars or maybe
you like the Canadian dollar, and you want
to run around New York using the Canadian
dollar– I think that that’s the future until
some of these key ones finally give in.
And that world looks very different.
And I don’t want to necessarily speculate
it and take it down the goldbug route.
But I do think that choice is going to be
a key part of this going forward.
But we find ourselves in the middle of what
people call the central bank bubble, the confidence
bubble, the everything bubble, the mother
of all– we’ve heard them all.
People seem to recognize that we’re in some
sort of bubble here.
And generally speaking, when those bubbles
burst, it takes away choice, and it takes
It takes away chaos.
It creates it, but the response is, OK.
We need to suck all that out of the system
because of this chaos.
We can’t let it loose, which says to me when
this bubble bursts, the control that’s going
to try and be exerted, the forces that are
gonna be brought to bear to try and control
that chaos, that complexity you talk about,
will have to be of a magnitude far, far greater
than we’ve seen at any point.
I think so.
But what is– and again, I don’t want to take
this down an overtly negative or political
path because I’m totally speculating here.
But I think in some ways, this information
economy, call it, is hopefully improved the
situation where I think if something would
have gone down that route in 2007, it probably
could have been controlled through nationalism
or some police state or military.
And I’m talking about the West here.
And by the way, I don’t think that would have
I think actually, the economy would have healed
itself much better.
But let’s say that all hell did break loose
post-Lehman and letting them all fail, AIG
and the rest.
I think society would have been at a place
where they maybe would’ve accepted some sort
of new system of control.
I think the difference this time is they’re
rapidly losing that power.
They’re rapidly losing trust in all institutions,
whether it’s political or rule of law, legal,
or just this perception of everything being
corrupt, this cynicism.
I just don’t know if someone is gonna obey
this new dictate that, no, you know what?
You’re not allowed to have this element owned
in the piece of earth.
It’s not backing our monetary system anymore.
But I’m just not gonna allow you to own gold
And you can’t own trees anymore, either.
I just don’t think society will accept that
Uber, for all of the things they do wrong
with breaking the rule of law, they blast
an email to their community in a small town,
they can vote out the mayor.
So I think people, when something provides
utility to them, I think today, I hope– again,
this is probably more of the hope hat than
maybe necessarily the rational path.
But I do think that people will embrace choice.
And hopefully views like ours or some from
the Bitcoin community or elsewhere will have
a seat at that debate without being ridiculed
and belittled by some of mainstream economists,
as they like to do, and just actually have
a debate about these things.
Well, let’s talk about your business because
you guys are in a unique position to really
understand how sentiment’s changing, how acceptance
What are the trends that you’re seeing in
people’s adoption of– now you’ve given them
this ability to use gold in a transactional
How are you seeing that be adopted?
I mean, I think people that recognize it kind
of have an open mind to it– and it’s growing
Our payments, our transactions– we’ve got
clients– I think I’ve told you this story
before– the client in Singapore, that his
son goes to school in Canada.
He buys with Sing dollar.
He buys gold in the morning, sends the title
of it to his son, who sells and redeems to
his Canadian bank account, same day.
We have the time zone advantage there.
But same day, he can go from one bank to another.
And these are the kind of promises of the
Bitcoin economy, as well, is that you have
this sort of cross-sovereign asset that can
be held and owned in both sides.
And so it makes clearing happen a lot faster.
So that one is gold just being a bridge.
And that one works well.
I use it.
People do it.
It’s so much easier for me to buy gold and
then sell it for moving from my Canadian bank
account to my US bank account.
It’s just easier than using the federal bank
And again, Bitcoin can do all these things.
So I think there’s that aspect of it.
And then there’s also the peer-to-peer side.
That one’s slower to be adopted, truth be
And I think that’s the same with the Bitcoin
What they’re seeing, as well, is people want
to buy and hold it or maybe borrow it.
At least in our case, you can borrow against
it and spend US dollars or something like
that, like a line of credit.
So there are other ways people use it.
But again, we’re not really forcing anyone
to do anything.
We’re just building the tools so that they
can be used.
And so we are seeing that people that find
them and use them, people are taking off.
But what trends are you seeing geographically?
Because you’ve got, as you said– your earlier
point– you’ve got a big chunk of the global
population who are positively inclined towards
They’re saving it for millennia.
They use it transactionally.
They gift it.
It is a currency to them.
And then you’ve got this side of the world
where people just aren’t using it.
Are you seeing that adoption?
I presume it’s pretty solid out in Asia and
China and India.
But are you seeing any changes in central
and the West.
That’s a slow ship to turn.
And I will say that we have– I’d say that
most of the people that are on our platform
typically knew gold or knew cryptocurrency.
I think we created an accessibility layer
that– we did have lots of feedback when we
sent out sort of a blast email to our early
And there were a good percentage that had
never used or never owned gold before because
we made it very easy and safe and great UX,
UI, all the technology aside, to actually
sign up an account, buy $100 worth of gold
or set a recurring payment to just deposit
$100 a week or month or whatever.
We built all these tools, so we made it very
I mean, if you were only saving $100 a month
in the past, it would’ve taken you a year
to buy an ounce of gold.
So having those tools, I think, has made it
But the knowledge barrier is still very high.
So it is still– for as fast as we’re growing
by just getting people onto the platform,
it’s getting some of my friends and Facebook
colleagues or whatever just to sign up and
use it, just trust me.
The math works.
It’s a slower sell.
But you’ve been talking about this stuff for
a long time, as has Roy.
And you talk very eloquently about it.
And this is what brings us back to where we
started with this thing.
There are a lot of very, very smart people
in the gold space who are gifted communicators
telling a positive story that’s held true
And we come back to this religion thing.
We come back to this wall that goes up where
people just say, no.
Don’t even bother talking about it.
I mean, how do you try, when you talk to people
about this– we’ve talked a little bit about
it at the beginning.
But how do you try and break that wall down?
Things like this.
And also, I think the very important thing
is we’re not telling you ever that gold is
going to 5,000.
We’re not promising you riches.
Although we try our hardest, we’re not telling
you that the government and society is going
to collapse, even though most people generally,
I think, are starting to believe that, even
in the mainstream.
That’s not our sales pitch.
And that’s the one that still works, by the
way, in a lot of these alternative assets.
But we’re trying not to do that.
We’re trying to just say, look, you’re always
And always even in this world is a pretty
good place to be.
Yeah, it’s a good starting point.
So that’s what we’re always trying to tell.
And it’s not an easy way to get people to
sign up right away.
But I think it’s the truth.
And so if we want to be building this business
for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, that’s what
we need to do.
We can’t take any shortcuts and try to promise
something that we can’t deliver.
Now, your business started– when I first
met you and Roy in Toronto more years ago
now than I care to remember, you were BitGold.
You started in the Bitcoin and gold world.
And this is another big debate that people
We’ve now not only got the people that prefer
money over gold, it’s Bitcoin over gold.
To me, gold and Bitcoin can coexit perfectly
But talk a little bit about the nexus of those
two worlds because you guys were right there.
Yeah, that’s what Roy and I recognized.
So we actually started on this system, I think,
before we were really interested in Bitcoin.
I mean, Roy particularly was buying in Bitcoin
very early, just diving into everything alternative
and just, again, the contrarian.
And so he was very early.
And I remember him telling me about it.
And I was like, yeah, that’s really cool.
Mathematically, that sounds like it makes
And of course, I didn’t act on it.
But at some point, we were also talking about
just having this gold custodian business.
It had nothing to do with Bitcoin.
So just, why isn’t there one financial institution
backed fully by gold?
You’ve got Canadian-dollar-backed ones, USdollar-backed–
why isn’t there one that just says, the math
of gold works.
Let’s make a gold-backed institution?
That to us seemed really odd, that there wasn’t
one doing it.
So then we asked, how could we do it?
And how do we build it?
Is this some marble column bank and secrecy
and all of that?
But what we saw with Bitcoin– and this is
what really inspired the idea for BitGold.
We were always about gold.
But it was the use cases of Bitcoin.
It was the nature of decentralization and
distributed technology and trying to have
more pieces and not just having, like, marble
columns hugging all the customers.
Don’t go there.
Just stay in our realm.
I think that idea of Bitcoin really inspired
And then not only that, the use cases, we
looked at it.
And we said, OK.
All of these things– the example I gave before
about gold being the bridge between two currencies,
whether you need it or not, it’s a more logical
system than OTC correspondent banking netwebs
with some manipulated fix in London and a
wire that goes missing for four days.
Using a bridge sovereign asset is a better
way to transact internationally.
So we said, oh, well all that cool stuff that’s
happening in Bitcoin and the technology space,
that’s around, at the time, a billion-dollar
In gold, you got a $7-trillion asset class
with no innovation, no technology.
So why don’t we not necessarily copy the technology
of Bitcoin, but the use case and the business
And so that’s really where it got started.
But we also had this other key sort of– the
Canadian expression, you know you want to
skate toward where the puck is headed.
The other view that we had is whether the
world goes into this crypto decentralized
currencies, I’m really not smart enough to
I like a lot of things about it.
There’s things I don’t like about it.
But I’m not smart enough to know where we’re
But what I do know– again, back to the physics–
gold will be a store of value no matter what,
in whatever world, whatever economy.
And it’s going to be demanded no matter what.
So I want to be part of the interoperability
between Bitcoin and gold.
So that was another thing that we focused
on very early.
And then that was another reason why the name
I think it turns out that the BitGold name
just really didn’t achieve what we wanted
People thought, oh, is this a Bitcoin backed
by gold, which we think is actually illogical?
And obviously, Nick Szabo’s white paper on
Bit Gold, there was a lot of pushback for
using the name BitGold.
So there was many reasons why it just didn’t
So when we acquired Goldmoney, we just took
the name Goldmoney.
But yeah, we were inspired.
And I think the world is learning a lot about
money and the properties of money and the
fundamental properties of sovereignty because
So I think that’s a good thing, no matter
So we began with religion.
We kind of got back to religion.
You showed us that the whole thing works.
So just lay out and explain why it works.
Why does this system work?
That’s the hard part.
And I think that’s where we’re really getting
into some new theory that Roy and I have been
building, sort of independently, and then
together for the last decade.
But going back to this physics– and for me,
it was recognize the energy component.
So probably the best way to explain it is
maybe just walk through the path of how I
questioned currency and everything else.
So back to my political risk days and quantitative
political risk, I like to take the first principles
of valuation of any asset.
So let’s talk about a mine in Zambia.
So a mine in Zambia, your first principle
starts with the geology.
What is the geologic inventory?
And obviously, what’s the uncertainty from
all the drill holes?
What are the mathematical models to quantify
That’s the first principle of what your inventory
Then you have to look at your fixed costs
and your wages and your labor.
But the other major component in any extractive
industry is energy.
What is the energy to put into the ore, to
blast, to haul, to mine, refine, all of that?
So any material coming from the earth has
an energy input.
So I’m not even talking about capital yet.
I’m just talking about first principles, things
that you can’t change.
So then you get that.
And then you go line by line through your
costs and all of this.
And you can generally map it all out as an
There’s one thing in the entire model that
I actually have no understanding of the fundamentals.
And that’s what is the value of the Zambian
So that’s the part where I started really
That’s the one thing I can’t use first principles
to figure out.
And even my political risk analysis and how
I want to create a discount rate or an effective
tax rate or however I want to quantify the
political risk, you can actually map out human
systems and the risks of too many tax payments
going to one agency.
And you need to separate it.
So there’s all of these ways to mitigate your
geologic risk, your energy risk, your political
But how do you mitigate the currency risk
other than a big hedge or a swap?
That’s the one fundamental.
So then I’m like, OK.
Now I’ve got to figure out this currency thing.
So I think that’s where it all started.
But to me, it goes back to those first principles
of the economy, that– and Roy came to the
same conclusion– everything that we touch,
feel, consume, all of the tools for our information
economy, all of it still comes from the ground.
All of it has some cost of energy– the energy
input in versus what’s the yield and what’s
the product coming out.
So I like to map the entire economy based
on these thermodynamic concepts of everything
has a energy cost of production.
And then everything has an entropy, or call
it a rate of decay from a financial standpoint.
And if you look at the contango in a commodity
price curve, it’s the same thing.
So you’re anchored by a marginal cost of production
or expected marginal cost of production.
And then you discount today’s price by the
cost of storage and decay.
So if you go through the economy– again,
before we get into tertiary industries, let’s
start at the commodity economy.
You have rates of decay in things that decay
You have electricity, natural gas, oil, grains,
coal, and then you have base metals, precious
And funny enough, those rates of decay also
is their financial volatility.
So you look down that whole spectrum, and
the highest volatility is in natural gas.
The lowest volatility is in gold.
So then I start thinking, OK.
There’s some physics, there’s some thermodynamics
to this whole economic system.
And then we started trying to layer in, OK,
so in this segment or this industry, how much
is intellectual property?
How much is IP?
And what is the fundamental– what’s the first
principle cost of labor?
And the first principle cost of labor is still
feeding yourself, shelter.
There’s still a very high energy component.
So you’ll talk to economists, and they’ll
say, we’ve moved way beyond the natural resource
Well, no, not really because most people–
and economies work in power laws.
They don’t work in normal distribution.
So this is a Pareto concept.
But most of the people are still closer to
Their main cost of living is very commodity-driven,
whether it’s going out to eat or putting a
roof over their head, the cost of utilities
It’s still a high percentage, which is why
So labor still has a very high energy component
in it, as well.
So you’ve got energy and labor.
You’ve got energy, obviously, in the natural
So what is the decay of the services they
What’s the dissemination of information on
So all of this, I still get back to these
same models of rates of decay versus the replacement
cost and energy.
So I just model the entire economy that way.
And gold is very interesting in that of all
of the things you can create in the economy,
it’s got the highest percentage of energy
cost because of its scarcity.
Because it’s so small and so value dense,
because you have to mine so much rock.
You have to crush a ton of rock to get a gram
of gold, and then all of the refining and
So it’s got about a 70% energy replacement
So it’s very tied to what’s the value of oil
in the economy and always will be because
But unlike any other commodity, it lasts forever.
So it has zero rate of decay, but it has a
70% energy cost of production.
So that anchor, that value anchor, will be
constant, particularly as you stretch time
and everything else decays.
Then all that’s left is the energy component,
and then it’s going to be constant 30 years
So that’s the model.
That’s the theory that we came up with why
And we’re trying to mathematically, systematically
prove that and falsify other theories.
We’re trying to do that while running a business,
so it becomes– You be careful going down
that rabbit hole, my friend.
There’s a lot going on here.
But that’s why we found that gold always works.
And we think this is a first principle.
We don’t think this is subjective.
We think this is a very objective view of
Roy has actually written some very good papers
on medium, the natural properties of money
and a number of others, as I have.
And then we have our research that we’re starting
to put on your platform.
It’s on Bloomberg, at GMIR, Go, Goldmoney
So we try to make all this accessible.
But we are trying to wrap this into a bigger
Well, as I say, you and I met in Hong Kong
and had a similar conversation to this one,
that the first time I sat down with you and
Roy, and I made a point to come in to see
you when was in Toronto one time, was because
I’d read the stuff you’ve written.
I thought, these guys, they look at this a
So I’m just really happy that a lot more people
are going to get a chance to sit down and
listen to the way you guys think about it.
Because it’s an archaic commodity.
But that doesn’t mean there aren’t new ways
to think about it.
And I think what you guys are doing in terms
of getting these new ways to think about it
across is an incredible service to people,
Whether we change anyone’s mind or not, we
just want– No, I appreciate it.
We just want to make people think, right,
and say, OK, let me open my mind.
And that’s the best part.
Roy and I both love the dialectic.
We’re out there picking fights on Twitter.
And you know what?
That’s how I learn the most.
And when I am proven wrong, it humbles you,
And so you refine your– but we’ve got this
society that doesn’t seem to want to do that.
So you can debate theories and uncertainty
and unprovable things.
And again, that’s the religious view.
But you can’t debate objective facts.
If I say gold’s a store of value, and you
say, no, it isn’t, you’re just wrong.
And that’s sort of– particularly when it’s
in the context of financial advice.
And I see this on the media all the time.
Gold is this.
Gold is that.
No, that’s wrong.
Gold is purported to be a store of value,
but it doesn’t hold up very well.
That’s bad financial advice, and that view
needs to be punched in the face.
That’s how we need to frame this.
And again if I’m wrong, right back at me.
And so I think that’s the approach we’re taking
because society needs to solve these problems.
But while we’re on this subject, let’s quickly
throw this in here.
Jeremy Siegel’s book, Stocks for the Long
Run, he’s the guy who said, over all this
time, you’ve owned stocks.
You were way ahead.
You owned bonds, you’re a little bit ahead.
If you owned gold, you were down.
How do you debunk that?
Is it just a question of timeframes?
That’s actually very easy.
And I’m not sure if Roy’s published it yet.
I know he wrote this, actually, a long time
ago, I think even before BitGold.
But there’s a lot of mathematical tricks,
just like the CPI index, in that.
So if you actually owned– so Warren Buffett
uses this, too– if would have bought the
Dow at the turn of the century.
Actually, of those 100 companies, I think
three exist still.
Well, that’s the problem with the Dow.
So no, you bought an index.
An index has to be managed.
It has to be bought and sold.
You’ve got to throw out your losers.
And that takes fees.
That takes friction.
There’s losses there.
There’s a decay.
That’s not a constant that just goes up.
If you just own these companies, most of them
And that’s probably the biggest trick of the
And I’ve been asked the question, too, I can
understand maybe if central banks got this
But why do finance guys get it wrong?
And the incentive is to promise that unachievable
spreadsheet index that you actually can’t
It has to be managed.
And what happens when you manage it?
You get paid.
So the incentive is to get paid to manage
And I’m not saying that’s good or bad.
I still think that’s a good thing.
That’s capital allocation.
All of this is a good thing in the economy.
But gold is boring because you actually don’t
really have to manage it.
And maybe I’m giving away a business secret
here, but it’s not that hard to store gold.
There’s very good rule of law.
I mean, you’ve got to understand the good
providers and who’s got good systems for risk
mitigation and insurance and all of these
But gold does not cost 40 basis points to
hold like it costs in the gold ETF.
That’s a total friction and a loss of money.
With us, it’s– well, under a kilogram, it’s
So that’s the best storage, particularly for
someone that can’t afford a lot of financial
But even above that, we’re talking about sub-20
So this isn’t an expensive hold.
And so that to me is a natural decay.
Now, a barrel of oil, that’s a much more expensive
A warehouse full of aluminum, that’s a more
So all of these things are fundamental.
Well, look, I enjoy your Twitter dialogues,
you and Roy.
And if you’re going to pick one fight on Twitter
about gold, do me a favor.
Just tweet @realDonaldTrump, gold is a store
Let’s just see what happens.
Maybe he’ll come back and pick a fight with
Actually, this administration, I think, is
probably biased that way.
And I wouldn’t say they necessarily have this
deep understanding of it.
But they do understand that it has worked
And that’s the other part that I just don’t
understand, is when people just want to just
kind of forget actual history and math and
just call you a goldbug.
Yeah, but it’s hard– I totally agree with
But I think it’s hard to forget history you
never learned in the first place.
And I think that’s the big problem.
Josh, we’ve run out of time.
I love talking to you and Roy.
It’s just so much fun.
You guys just have a unique way of thinking
So thanks for taking the time in New York
to come and talk to me.
Ash Bennington: Over the last few years, the
only thing more impressive than the skyrocketing
surge in cryptocurrency prices is the media
attention they’ve attracted.
But what if in this tsunami of media coverage
of digital currencies, we’re missing the big
What if the real revolution isn’t the shortterm
surge in the valuation of these coins, but
in the business applications of blockchain,
the technology that powers cryptocurrency.
My name is Ash Bennington.
I’m going to talk to entrepreneurs, consultants,
and theorists to find out what’s happening
in the world of business blockchain.
I’m in midtown Manhattan heading to Hudson
Malone to meet with my old colleague, Forbes
crypto staff writer– Michael Dell Castillo–
to discuss the issues and to put my conversation
with the other experts into context.
The words enterprise blockchain, what do they
mean to you?
Michael del Castillo: To me, enterprise blockchain
is the adoption of this distributed ledger
technology that was first popularized by Bitcoin
by companies that are already generating revenue
using the old centralized model.
AB: Michael and I met when we were both reporters
While I was finance and markets lead, Michael
was delving into exactly these issues running
corporate blockchain coverage.
MC: In a lot of ways, the distributed ledger
the technology behind Bitcoin, it was designed
to make middlemen unnecessary.
And when we talk about enterprise adoption
of this very same technology, sometimes it’s
actually those very same middlemen that some
people are imagining no longer need to exist.
So it’s striking that balance between staying
on the cutting edge of what technology enables,
while still holding onto a strong revenue
stream is really at the core of what makes
enterprise adoption of blockchain so interesting.
AB: So what exactly is a blockchain?
Blockchain is a distributed database that
stores information in blocks, what you can
think of as a kind of virtual container for
As new data gets added, additional blocks
The blocks are then linked together chronologically
to form a sequence of blocks called a chain.
As new information gets added, the chains
This method of data storage is called nondestructive,
meaning old data never gets erased or overwritten
because the previous blocks in the chain remain
Each new block that is written contains something
called a cryptographic hash, a small mathematical
fingerprint of the blocks that came before
it in the chain, making it extremely difficult
to tamper with the data that resides inside
We spoke to some very interesting people in
this space, people at top consulting firms,
people at sort of hipster Brooklyn startups
across the board.
This is going to be really interesting to
get your view on what they’re thinking about
First, we went downtown to IBM’s Watson Global
Headquarters and spoke to Jason Kelly, General
Manager for IBM’s blockchain services.
Jason Kelly: When you think of core value,
it’s back to what’s the core outcome.
And blockchain really is– as bright and shiny
and exciting as it is– it’s really simple.
It reaches two elusive objectives that have
been there for years.
First, we know that businesses and the outcome
of businesses run on data.
There’s been two things we’ve always tried
to get with data.
First, access, shared and permissioned access.
The other is that once you get to that data,
is that data quality there?
Is it what you think it is?
Are you sure?
Those two things are now the biggest outcomes
that you have with this bright, shiny technologies.
One of the things that makes blockchain so
powerful is its distributed nature.
Distributed in this case means that data isn’t
just stored in one centralized database controlled
by a single account or administrator, but
across a wide-ranging network of computers
In fact, the capacity for global networking
itself is the very core of how blockchain
Modern distributed computer networks began
in the late 1960s with ARPANET, a precursor
of the modern internet, which connected computers
at research universities out West.
But peer-to-peer networks, which power block
train’s communication and are so central to
its functionality, are a much more recent
The first well-known peer-to-peer network
was Napster, which appeared in the late 1990s.
Napster– as you probably remember– allowed
users to share music files between their personal
Each node– or independent computer on the
network– has the ability to share data with
all of the others without being coordinated
by a central computer.
Really, the value that you get in this transparency
and trust, and this thought that you have
transactions that are happening across different
stages with people, paper, and process.
Well, if you think of that, people tend to
go supply chain.
And it’s an easy one, because you have these
transactions that go from point A to Z, or
in some cases, this thought of farm to fork.
There’s many people who consume organic food.
However, there’s more organic food consumed
than is produced.
Wouldn’t it be great if you could confirm
right there before you consume or at point
of purchase that this is organic?
Food, as soon as you say, oh, there could
be an illness, that food is presumed guilty
until it’s proven innocent.
So you’re going to throw it away.
So working with Walmart– who is world class,
world class– seven days in finding a point
of origin of their food.
You’d say, seven days?
That’s a lot of food to be throwing away.
How can we take IBM Food Trust and use this
blockchain network and figure this out?
And in doing that, they went from seven days–
world class– to 2.2 seconds.
Trust is going to be part of each transaction.
MC: IBM has been far and away one of the earliest
enterprise blockchain adopters in the world.
But then something really interesting happened
in November of 2017, which is that IBM became
the first global enterprise to publicly talk
about embracing cryptocurrency in a real application.
Slowly, we’ve seen this shift where enterprises–
who are in a lot of ways the definition of
these middlemen– are experimenting with the
AB: It’s almost like as though they’ve gotten
to the point where they decide if someone’s
going to intermediate them, they might as
well disintermediate themselves, right?
But that ties in very nicely to the point
that they were making that it’s about transparency
How do they do that though?
MC: Yeah, It’s a great question.
When we see enterprises looking at using blockchain
technology, we’re not actually talking about
We’re not talking about a sort of a Trojan
horse that makes the company unnecessary What
we’re talking about has increased efficiency
of the middle and the back office level.
AB: That must be frightening for enterprises
to even have that conversation, right?
MC: I’ll tell you who I think it’s frightening
for are the employees.
For now, what enterprise blockchain adoption
looks like is really reimagining middle and
back office operations with fewer employees
to help make it happen.
AB: Then we went uptown to Park Avenue to
KPMG’s US headquarters and spoke to Eamonn
Maguire, managing director, advisory at KPMG.
How is the mortgage industry structured today?
And specifically, if you could touch on some
of the pain points.
Eamonn Maguire: Yeah, so the mortgage industry
is incredibly complex.
It’s one of the most diverse ecosystems that
I can think of.
There are multiple providers who are involved
in making a mortgage happen.
So for a customer, it’s a pretty awful process.
It takes somewhere between 60 and 90 days
in the United States to get a mortgage.
AB: What is it about this technology that’s
EM: The data aspect to blockchain, as well
as the smart contract aspect of blockchain,
which is about executing automated processes,
are the two things that make blockchain be
particularly useful or good for people.
In the future, if you were to go to a portal
and choose a product, you could effectively
provide for digital power of attorney to the
lending institution to go and get all of the
information about you without having to lift
a finger beyond providing that digital power
So you could authorize the banking institution
to collect information on your employment,
on your alimony payments, on the value of
the current asset or assets that you have,
on your credit score, on so many things that
have historically been very, very painful
for the borrower to provide.
And now it can all happen at the drop of a
There’s no doubt that there could be situations
where some of the process might be, let’s
say, accelerated or expedited.
Like, for example, in the title search space.
Many times, when a title search is done, the
title search has done not just on the most
recent owner for the property, but you may
need to go back in history many generations
and many owners ago to confirm the validity
of the provenance and ownership for the current
In a blockchain world, where there is confidence
in the historical information that has been
collected on the ownership for the property,
then you will only have to go to one generation
and to update the historical record.
MC: When you take a look at the accounting
industry, they really were the second adopter
of enterprise blockchain technology.
Obviously, the first use case was cross-border
payments with Bitcoin, and buying and selling
But the second use case was really accounting.
And I remember the first time that I put the
words of a big four accounting firm in a headline,
people were freaking out.
Because the idea of a big four accounting
firm using this technology that we had only
used to buy alpaca socks before was mind-boggling.
But the connection from a decentralized way
to send money to a decentralized way to account
for money is so close as to be inseparable.
And I think it was really inevitable that
accounting firms were going to be the next
I just actually purchased my first home, and
I can’t tell you how frequently I wished that
the people that I was dealing with had access
to the same ledger.
It was just time, and time, and time again,
week after– 10 months of work, a week before
closing, we discovered we were missing a certificate
that the previous three owners hadn’t had.
AB: And this is exactly the case for that
ledger that can go back and see what’s been
in the process.
MC: Yeah, by moving certificate of occupancies
to a distributed ledger.
And so that every time an upgrade is made
to a property, that certificate is passed
down to the next owner without any extra work
is incredibly, incredibly valuable.
AB: Next we went out to Bushwick, Brooklyn
to meet with Jesse Grushack, co-founder of
Ujo Music, which works under the umbrella
of the blockchain giant consensus.
Jesse Grushack: What we’re doing and what
we have been kind of working on for the past
few years is building a new music industry.
A lot of the laws and rules and regulations
were set when we were still listening to piano
And the world’s changed quite a bit since
And so now, there’s no system built for digital
There’s no systems that can handle the transfer
of files and value transfers.
And to us, that looks like creating systems
that automate rights and royalties that can
automate and create dynamic licensing, so
you’re not stuck in this one license.
It can flex or mold or shift pricing based
on the usage of it.
And to start for us was the artist and their
digital identity and their content.
Now, how do we digitize those in a way where
no matter where they are on the web, we can
find out what the policies are around usage.
We can find out know who wrote the song, who’s
involved in the song.
And if we buy that license or utilize that
content in some way, we want to make sure
everyone who had a part in that song is being
And fairly means that they can see who licensed
it, or at least what it was licensed for,
and they can see what percentage was.
And they don’t see that in a year or two.
They see that instantly, or within 15 seconds.
AB: Let’s talk a little bit about the nuts
and bolts mechanics of the technology itself.
JG: It comes down to three main things, right?
And that’s the ability to have payments, to
have data, and to have identity all wrapped
up in a transferable way.
If you’re a musician or just a consumer, it’s
something you should be paying attention to.
MC: So the music space was really a natural
next step for the industry to go in a lot
AB: Another very dysfunctional industry, right?
MC: Well, also, I feel like if the accounting
firm is kind of like the epitome of the big,
boring, buttoned-up corporation, then the
music industry is rock and roll.
And it’s a really easy way for an entirely
different group of people to get interested
in blockchain and the potential benefits that
it can bring.
Specifically, Ujo is reimagining the ways
that musicians are compensated.
And perhaps more importantly, the way that
appreciators of music express that appreciation
by removing the middle businessmen that separate
the appreciation of music from the selling
and the creation of music.
AB: The possibilities here are virtually endless,
And we’re just at the very beginning of that
MC: Very exciting space for blockchain.
AB: We also went to Gowanus, Brooklyn to visit
Lawrence Orsini, CEO and founder of LO3 Energy
at their headquarters and workshop, where
they design blockchain-based power meters
for use on an electrical grid.
So what is the Smart Grid?
Lawrence Orsini: So historically speaking,
we built from big power plants that push energy
to the edge of the grid.
So today, people are really looking for choice.
So you see a lot of distributed renewables
popping up, wind, solar, on people’s rooftops.
We now have two-way power flows.
Electricity is being produced at the edge
of the grid, as well as the head of the grid.
And the grid’s not really built for energy
moving both directions.
So Smart Grid has to figure out how to balance,
load, generation, storage.
AB: And how does blockchain fit into this
ecosystem that you just described?
LO: So one of the challenges is we’re talking
about adopting millions of devices that need
to be controlled in real time.
It’s going to be billions of devices in the
next few years.
So what we’re doing with blockchain is really
setting price as a proxy for control, allowing
those devices to respond in real time to grid
AB: So you’re using blockchain as kind of
a transporter communication layer inside the
Is that right?
LO: It really is.
The blockchain is really just pushing information
to the edge of the grid, and then picking
information back up.
AB: So Lawrence, tell me what we’re looking
LO: So these are our transactive elements.
These are the actual meters the blockchain
So what these things do, they sit right next
to your utility meter, and they net the energy
that’s going back onto the grid, or that’s
coming off of the grid.
So if you’re a prosumer– that’s somebody
who has solar panels on your roof, or a battery
behind the meter– then when you’re producing
electricity, typically, you’re overproducing.
So you’re making more energy than the house
can use, so that energy actually goes back
onto the grid.
So that’s when you’re actually producing something
valuable for the grid.
So we want to count those electrons.
So these meters actually count those electrons,
net what goes back on the grid, and incorporate
that into the blockchain.
So it’s really about how do we make the edge
of the grid balance itself in a smart way
as we get more and more distributed resources
at the edge of the grid.
And particularly, electric vehicles.
Consider this, an electric vehicle looks like
two houses to the utility grid, and they drive
So somehow, we’re going to have hundreds of
new houses popping up on the electric grid
that isn’t built for it.
AB: And are these actually deployed in the
LO: Yeah, we’ve got them deployed here.
We have them in Australia.
We have a few in Germany, the UK.
AB: So right here in Brooklyn?
LO: Right here in Brooklyn.
MC: So I was actually on location in Brooklyn
the first time they ever did a live demo of
this technology, and it was thrilling to see
two neighbors buying and selling energy from
On one side of the street, there was a gentleman
that had good sun, and on the other side of
the street there was a gentleman who was in
They were friends, and they were transacting
on the energy grid together in real time.
AB: It sounds like an economics book test
I mean, it’s really extraordinary.
MC: They loved it.
This is another example similar to Ujo where
the users are empowered in a really meaningful
AB: It’s also so interesting to see blockchain
actually helping to build a new industry,
rather than supplanting existing technology.
Finally, we came back to Manhattan to meet
with Alex Rass.
Before Alex got involved in blockchain, he
worked in traditional finance on credit risk
systems at Goldman Sachs.
Now he runs his own shop that specializes
in blockchain and smart contract development.
What was it that you saw in this space that
made you feel like this was a technology that
Alex Rass: Moving money, we’ve done this before.
Storing data in a database, that’s been done
And then writing code on distributed machines,
all of that was done before.
But now they secured it, made it solid, and
distributed it in a way that has never been
It’s very easy to scale one tiny database
to go to 10 users, 100 users, 10,000 users.
Been done before.
But you try to say OK, I want this piece of
data to be available to the entire world,
that is very tricky and does not work with
the typical approach that’s been taken so
far to distributing data.
AB: So one of the things that I find very
interesting about you is that you’re involved
in this and you’re a great advocate for the
technology, but you’re also profoundly skeptical
of some of the things that are happening in
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
AR: Yeah there’s been a lot of companies–
larger ones especially– who want to– who
see this, they understand the value, and they
say, well, we’ll make our own version.
But then you looked into us, and we’re not
going to mention to you all the problems we
create by doing it in house.
AB: So what are some of those problems?
AR: The infamous 51% attack.
The way the nodes synchronize, is they declare
a consensus that as long as majority agrees
the data is right, then that’s the data they
AB: So what you’re saying is if there are
more than 51% on the network that are bad
actors, then suddenly the entire security
of the system can be compromised?
Which has actually happened with public blockchains,
let alone with private ones where I can go
to major– AB: What’s that distinction between
private blockchains and public blockchains?
AR: The private ones are run by a firm, within
the firm, and they control the nodes.
They say, these are the nodes we’re allowed.
These are nodes we don’t allow.
AB:I think for many people, when they hear
that, they may think, well, that that could
be less risk, because there’s actually a corporation
that’s controlling– AR: Exactly.
AB: So I think the perception might be potentially
at odds with what the reality is.
AR: Yeah, it’s very common, especially with
high tech areas like math and sciences where
that things seem intuitive, until somebody
explains to you why they’re not.
AB: So do you see the potential, Alex, when
you look at these technologies for a catastrophic
risk at some point in the future for one of
these firms that is using blockchain technology?
AR: The problem is with the larger– the popular
ones, the open source blockchains, you have
entire world looking for errors.
Some looking to make it better, some looking
to steal money.
Whatever the case may be, there’s a ton of
people who are looking for problems.
AB: So what you’re saying is when these technologies
are out there and they’re public, they’re
being vetted by hundreds of thousands– AR:
Constantly, every day, all day long.
Because everybody wants money.
And Google in fact– and a lot of other firms,
Microsoft even started more recently– they
go out and they offer bounties to developers
to go find bugs and report it to them.
So that only works to a certain extent.
The problem with the smartest guy in the room
is that there’s always another room.
And that’s what happens with this kind of
Because there’s so much code involved, it’s
really easy to miss something.
AB: So you and I go to a lot of blockchain
conferences, crypto conferences, those kinds
of things, and you listen to the speeches
that you hear there.
And sometimes it sounds like the only thing
that’s missing is the pompoms, right?
We’re going to arrive at Nirvana two weeks
When you hear that, what is your reaction?
AR: As a technologist, I’m usually skeptical,
because if it was so amazing, they could have
done this 10 years ago within your regular
we’re talking about blockchains, what are
the questions that often comes up is the distinction
between a blockchain and a traditional database.
Can you explain what exactly those differences
are? AR: The original database, you have–
typically, you have records that you store.
And the record can contain let’s say, name,
phone number, and address.
And it goes in something called a table, and
there it resides until somebody decides to
erase it, update it, change it.
So with the blockchain, the difference is
when you come and you say, OK, I when my phone
number to be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 from now on, you
don’t erase the old record, you just append
the new record after all the– after the latest
So anybody who reads, has to read from start.
What the benefit is now, you don’t have to
store all the data.
You just say, phone number’s being updated.
In the same time, you can’t say, oh, I never
had that phone, because it’s still stored
there deep down somewhere, and anybody with
the copy of the node– which should be freely
distributed and available– can go dig down
and find it.
AB: So why or use cases that look like plain
vanilla database solutions being sold as blockchain
AR: Because of all the hype.
It’s become such a popular topic lately that
everybody just wants to be part of it.
Everybody wants to be on the bandwagon.
Because they promised a new internet, here
Jump on it or you’re going to regret– you’re
gonna regret not jumping on it when your grandma
MC: So I think Alex is actually 100% right
about the question of whether or not a blockchain
is really just another word for a distributed
And especially when you remove the cryptocurrency
component, it really starts to look a whole
lot like a distributed database.
AB: Or a distributed database with marketing
upsell attached to it.
And there is actually some value to be said
I think people weren’t even talking about–
they weren’t even looking for use cases of
distributed databases before blockchain came
And a traditional database system is perhaps
no better exemplified than Equifax, the credit
bureau that keeps a central repository of
millions of people’s credit history.
The existing system– which some people say
might make blockchain not really as necessary
as it’s cracked up to be– was very recently
In a centralized system, you would think that
there’s actually fewer points of attack, and
in a distributed system, you’re expanding
the points of attack, when in fact, we’re
seeing the exact opposite.
And by moving this information to a shared,
distributed technology, you’re actually creating
a disincentive for attackers to go after the
honeypot, as it’s called, right?
AB: As we look back over what we watched today,
what did you find most surprising?
MC: What really catches me most off guard
is the diversity within the enterprises themselves
as far as whether or not they think there’s
promise, or it’s just a bunch of hoopla.
I’m really surprised that after almost 10
years, there isn’t more consensus on that
It’s really a question of are people, are
consumers looking to place– to spend their
money to express their trust in corporations,
and in centralized authorities, and in protectors?
Or are they looking to express their trust
in cryptographically protected systems?
AB: And that’s probably a very nuanced question,
And how does that balance out as we move forward?
That’s where there’s going to be money to
The people who answer different parts of that
question correctly first are going to make
immense amounts of money.
The people who miss subtle opportunities are
going to be left behind.
And that’s when we talk about the big D word,
Disintermediation is a lot of fun unless you’re
the one being disintermediated.
It’s funny though, to see some of these big
enterprises– as you put it earlier– selfdisintermediate.
And in the end, I’m not really sure where
that takes us, but it’s going to be fascinating
AB: Thank you for joining us.
MC: It was a pleasure.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Meltem, thank you so much
for joining us.
You have quite the varied background.
Could you take us a little bit through it?
You actually started out in oil and gas, is
MELTEM DEMIRORS: That’s right, that’s right.
So I started my career trading commodities.
I traded ethanol and methanol.
And then got into trading carbon credits when
those were a thing, I guess a fad if you will.
And so then spent some time in oil and gas
M&A from 2009 to 2014.
I also spent some time working in corporate
treasury for one of the major oil and gas
producers, Exxon Mobil.
And after spending the early part of my career
in commodities, oil and gas, corporate finance,
went to graduate school, where I got excited
about bitcoin and fintech.
And from there I guess things just went downhill.
Or uphill, if you will.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: There’s actually, I noticed
that you’re on the World Economic Forum Blockchain
What exactly is that?
What do you do there?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: So I started working with
the council when it was first formed in 2016.
And they recently took the last two years
of work that had been done via that council
and created a center for the Fourth Industrial
Revolution, which is based in San Francisco.
And they’ve honed in their focus on AI, robotics,
blockchain technology, and four or five other
areas,– And are really actively focused on
really helping policymakers, decision-makers,
corporate executives, governments, understand
what’s happening with this technology, work
on small scale pilots, and then put together
frameworks to help regulators implement new
policy and new governance that will help provide
sort of safeguards for this technology to
As you know, the blockchain ecosystem and
the cryptocurrency ecosystem in particular
have really struggled with the lack of regulatory
clarity over the last few years, particularly
now as the market’s growing and there’s much
more demand from not only investors, but also
corporates who are looking to adopt this technology.
And so the goal is for this WEF council to
play a role in helping push forward, and just
providing a trusted resource and a trusted
group of individuals who can help steward
some of that process.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: And that’s going to be
key for getting institutions more deeply involved.
And that’s something you’ve been working on
quite a lot.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Well, I would say the institutional
side of this business has been the most interesting
Cryptocurrencies are unique, because they’re
very friendly to retail investors.
And with most new asset classes, what typically
happens, is these asset classes are first
popularized with institutional investors.
Typically there are specialist hedge funds
that emerge or alternative asset managers
that emerge, and these asset classes are typically
really oriented towards institutional audiences.
Here what’s happened is the inverse.
Crypto started with retail investors.
It started with a group of people on the internet.
They made this magical internet money, if
And over time, it’s flourished and developed
really outside of regulatory bounds in most
And so now that institutions are looking at
the asset class, we’re going sort of in the
inverse direction that we’ve gone historically.
And so what I think’s been interesting, is
institutions are trying to number one, think
about how to manage risk in this new world.
There is financial risk.
There’s a lot of reputational risk.
But there’s legal and regulatory risk as well,
given the lack of clarity with regulators
all over the world.
And so there’s a lot of nuances and pieces
that need to be figured out.
What I’ve seen so far though, I mean just
this year alone, we’ve seen a number of really
Fidelity is now custodying digital currencies,
primarily Bitcoin, for some of their larger
clients and asset managers in this space.
We’ve seen that ICE, which is New York Stock
Exchange’s parent company, last year launched
a new subsidiary focused on digital currencies.
They’re going to be issuing their first physically
backed bitcoin futures product, which is exciting.
CME has had their cash settled bitcoin futures
product in the market for about two years
But they’re trading record breaking volumes
on that contract.
So I think slowly those pieces are starting
to fall into place.
But with most regulated financial institutions,
it’s typically one player moving forward,
and then everyone being a fast follower.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: So as someone that’s actually,
you’ve been personally investing in these
coins and cryptocurrencies, what do you see
as the right allocation for crypto?
Especially looking at it from an institutional
perspective, there are certain allocations
to different risk assets.
Where does crypto fall into that?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: That’s a great question,
and I think that’s a question where one of
the things we sometimes forget in crypto that
I try to be very mindful of, is cryptocurrencies
fit into sort of a larger macro narrative
And so it’s interesting how cryptocurrencies,
particularly bitcoin, and if we think about
the cryptocurrency market, the way I categorize
it is, there’s Bitcoin, which today is over
50% of the market in terms of market cap.
Then there’s Ethereum, which is around 5%
to 10% of the market.
And then there’s everything else.
And there’s a long tail of other assets.
When it comes to allocating to these assets,
it is my belief and our belief as an asset
manager, that the majority of interest is
still in Bitcoin.
Just because it’s best understood.
There’s the most educational material available
And some of the fundamentals of Bitcoin are
very similar to the fundamentals of gold or
other physically scarce assets or produced
commodities, like oil and gas, which is also
And so to us, Bitcoin’s really the first asset
that investors are getting interested in.
And then there’s this long tail that’s much
more speculative, where we see a lot of specialist
emerging managers focus on creating hybrid
hedge fund venture fund style strategies to
invest in these new and emerging cryptoassets
with the hope that they’ll see 100%, 200%
appreciation over a short period of time.
But when we think about really large volumes
of capital flowing in, I think the predominant
narrative right now is still Bitcoin.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Mm-hmm.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: And I think what’s interesting
to think about is, many investors who’ve been
getting exposure, started by doing it through
a side pocket or maybe they did it through
Family office of a CIO or a manager of a large
fund getting exposure first.
And it really started with education.
So many macro fund managers who took an interest
in Bitcoin in 2017 started maybe writing research
on the topic.
Maybe they had a small group of two or three
traders getting familiar with the venues where
these things trade, how execution works, some
of the nuances of managing this new type of
And just now we’re starting to see macro fund
managers get interested in potentially adding
But I do believe at this point in time, the
majority of the exposure is still Bitcoin.
And a lot of it’s accessed through products.
And we have an exchange traded note in the
European market through our XBT provider brand.
That’s been really popular with managers in
We see the same with the grayscale products
here in the US, similar construction.
And then I think we’re going to see a number
of new products launch that enable investors
to get managed exposure.
And particularly, abstract out some of the
complexities of adding cryptoassets to the
infrastructure of an investment firm.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: So still the early days
in– MELTEM DEMIRORS: Early days, yeah.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Now what do you see as
the boom bust cycle for bitcoin specifically?
And do you see that as uniquely different
from other assets or other technologies?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: I think look, markets are
This is one thing we know.
And one thing we’ve certainly seen in digital
currencies is this pattern of rapid inflation
in prices typically driven by news.
One of the interesting things people always
ask me, well, what are the fundamentals that
substantiate value for digital currencies?
And the answer is, most of it’s driven on
news cycles and confidence.
Confidence of investors and participants in
And it’s not so different from public markets.
What gives something like Tesla its value?
Obviously, that’s a little bit different.
It’s a public company that has reported financials.
But the great thing about digital currencies
is, all of these metrics around the digital
currencies themselves and the networks that
support them, they’re public.
So people are extracting all sorts of different
data points from these blockchains.
People are creating all sorts of new metrics
aside from just price and market cap and daily
traded volume to try to understand how these
things are actually being used, trying to
create new fundamentals and formalizing them
through a lot of this research that’s being
written by investors and investment managers.
But I think the challenge is still, there
are these waves of news that are typically
driven by positive market events.
For example, financial institutions adding
digital currency offerings to their suite
of offerings was a great news cycle in the
earlier part of this year.
That drives more investor interest.
It helps sort of create legitimacy, if you
will, for the asset class.
That in turn, leads to more investors rushing
Historically the booms and busts have been
driven by retail interest and retail bringing
But what we’re seeing in this cycle is, there
seems to be more of an inflow of institutional
So that’s exciting.
But typically what happens is, people all
pile in, they’re excited about it.
Expectations get overinflated.
We see a bit of a spike or if you will, a
Expectations realign as people realize it’s
going to take quite some time for the technology
to catch up to the expectations people have.
Then you see a return to reality.
You see the real value of these assets align
more closely with what’s actually feasible.
And then we repeat that cycle.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Do you think the technology
is there yet for bitcoin, for crypto?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Sure.
I mean, one of the interesting conversations
we have is, if bitcoin never changed, would
it still have value?
And I think the answer to that at this point
is, definitively yes.
Bitcoin has proven that it functions well
as a store of value.
And so the way we often talk about bitcoin
is as digital gold.
And a lot of people who hold bitcoin, really
what their interest is in having an alternative
to holding fiat in a bank account.
Instead of holding US dollars in a CIS bank
account, you can now hold bitcoins in a wallet
that you control the keys to.
And it’s secure, it’s resistant to being seized,
which is a narrative right now that’s particularly
relevant with what’s happening on the global
But I think the narrative is still very much
around viewing digital currencies and bitcoin
in particular, as a hedge to political risk.
What’s interesting to see though, is as part
of the cycle of bitcoin maturing and the technology
evolving, that narrative starts to change.
So in 2016, when the Ethereum network launched
for the first time, this idea of smart contracts
or the ability to issue assets on a digital
medium and have programmable money or programmable
assets was popularized.
And that led to a whole new wave of innovation.
Part of that innovation was new financial
products being created, a new type of assets
What we’re seeing now with bitcoin, this layer
two of the bitcoin network called the Lightning
Network, which facilitates payments in real
time that are instant, that are fast, that
aren’t dependent on the base layer of the
bitcoin blockchain, which tends to be slow,
has a 10-minute block confirmation time.
That’s facilitating all sorts of new use cases.
And that in turn, drives a lot of interest
from investors and opens up the realm of possibilities
in terms of what can be built on top of the
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: You mention bitcoin as
a hedge against political risk.
You actually have a really interesting story
as to how you first used bitcoin that relates
to that in a certain way.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Absolutely.
So my family, I grew up in the Netherlands,
but my parents are both Turkish.
And not only are they Turkish, but they’re
both from the same small village in Turkey,
about 2,000 people, and it’s about an hour
north of the Mediterranean.
So near Antalya, if you know Turkey.
But what was interesting for me growing up
is, I lived in a world, first in the Netherlands,
and then in the US, where I never really thought
about money or my ability to access money.
I had a credit card.
I could go to the ATM.
You didn’t really think about accessing the
But what was interesting, is trying to interact
with my family in Turkey, they lived in a
village that had no electricity, no running
water till I was a teenager.
And even then, there wasn’t a bank branch
in that village.
So you would have to drive to a town 30 minutes
away to go to a bank branch.
So in our minds, many of us, we can’t really
imagine that type of world.
But for me, this was very real.
And so what became interesting to me when
I first started learning about bitcoin in
2012, this idea that anyone with an internet
connection and the ability to download this
open source software client, can now interact
with the bitcoin network.
That is fundamentally transformative.
If you think about, I remember the day as
BitTorrent and Napster and LimeWire, when
people were sending files.
Or even when you first started sending emails.
That’s fundamentally transformative.
And I think this idea of peer to peer digital
money that is borderless, that is supranational,
meaning it’s not tied to any one state or
anyone entity, and is not controlled by one
specific individual or one specific group,
that’s a really powerful concept.
And to me, that’s what really made bitcoin
click for me.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Mm-hmm.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Now there’s a lot of challenges.
How do you get money into and out of the system?
How do you get bitcoin in the first place?
There’s still a lot of these on and off-ramp
questions that need to be resolved.
What do you actually do when you have bitcoin
on the network?
How do you safely store it and manage it?
A lot of these challenges are what many of
the startups building around this technology
are trying to resolve.
But the fundamental idea is an extremely powerful
And I think again, it’s part of this broader
narrative and this broader story arc we’re
going through right now, which is the evolution
of how we live.
We’ve gone from existing in the physical world,
interacting with physical money, with paper
stock certificates, with face to face interaction
to doing more and more things online digitally
and thinking more about privacy and our rights
when we go online and engage and transact
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: So you don’t have to, I
mean, that’s sort of the what bitcoin has
been built up on, is that you don’t have to
rely on one bank or one centralized authority.
But do you still see areas of systemic risk
even within the crypto community, even within
the crypto space itself?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Oh, absolutely.
It’s still an experiment.
I think this is the though one caution I always
give, is this is still an experiment, and
this is a binary investment.
This is either going to zero or a whole lot
more than zero.
And there’s really not much in between.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Even Bitcoin?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Yes, absolute.
I mean, look, this is very experimental, it’s
very high risk.
I recommend people only invest what they’re
willing to lose.
There’s, and what’s unique here, is there’s
There’s network risk.
So there’s the protocol in the code itself,
which is maintained by a group of developers
who contribute to this open source project.
And open source is nothing new.
It’s been around for a long time.
But what’s interesting here, is its development
So the stakes are much higher.
The politics of it are much more heated, I
And we’ve seen this over the last few years,
the dialogue happening within bitcoin and
the splintering or forking of the bitcoin
network into multiple different networks with
very different visions.
And then you have the network itself, which
once the code is written, people have to run
And there are tens of thousands of nodes around
the world that run copies of the bitcoin software
and store copy of all of the history of the
So a great example is, it’s like if you wanted
to send an email, you’d have to download every
email that’s ever been sent.
It’s pretty intensive.
Our firm, CoinShares, has done a lot of research
on the economics of bitcoin mining or supporting
the bitcoin network.
And so bitcoin does rely on increasingly more
and more computational resources being contributed
to the network to keep it secure.
So there are fundamental questions around
the security of the bitcoin network.
And in fact, national security agencies like
DARPA, have been doing a lot of research and
have a research lab dedicated to the development
of these new communication networks that are
And then there is also the application layer.
So how are people going to interact with digital
If a regulator somewhere decides that they
no longer want to allow digital currency exchanges
to operate, what does that mean for the system?
If all of a sudden those fiat on-ramps are
removed, which again, we’ve seen in the past
when, for example, the Chinese government
cut off access to banking for Chinese exchanges,
that can have material impacts on the market.
And so there are a lot of risks.
But I think for a lot of investors looking
at this space, there’s just a tremendous amount
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Now I got to ask, Facebook.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Yes.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: And the coin that they’re
developing, it’s funny, because this is a,
seems to be a private centralized controlled
Does it really have that much to do with crypto?
Is it’s something that the crypto space can
really use or leverage?
Or does this really do anything?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: No.
So here’s my take on Facebook’s project.
It’s called Libra.
So first and foremost, on the way Facebook’s
going about it, and we’ll learn more in the
near future when they released the technical
white paper, but what we know so far that
can be publicly shared is this.
Number one, really what Facebook is attempting
to do, is to create a stable coin or an asset
that has relative purchasing power parity
So bitcoin as we know, is volatile in price.
Just in the last three months alone, it’s
doubled in price.
But we’ve also seen periods where it’s lost
80% of its value.
So for your average user, it’s not necessarily
the best asset to hold when it comes to being
a medium of exchange or unit of account.
People seek stability, which is why so much
of the world has been dollarized in many ways.
So what Facebook is attempting to do, is to
compete really with the US dollar in the existing
correspondent banking system.
What I do think is interesting about what
Facebook is doing is this.
Number one, Facebook has 2.5 billion users
around the world.
So if you think about the distribution of
this, the potential is absolutely massive.
Today, the estimates for active cryptocurrency
users, which come from the research done by
They do an annual user study around bitcoin
in particular, is anywhere between 30 to 100
Facebook has 2.5 billion users.
There are only 3.5 billion people, only 50%
of the world’s population’s online.
So Facebook’s ability to bring the idea of
digital assets or digital currencies to a
whole new audience, I think is absolutely
Because they’re going to have to educate this
audience on what digital currencies are, how
they work, what a wallet is, how a wallet
And all of these things in my view, are net
positive in helping spread awareness and education.
I think the second thing that’s really important,
is for corporates all around the world, they’re
all looking at this.
And I can imagine that in every boardroom
across the world right now, corporates are
asking themselves, what does this mean for
We’ve already seen this reflected.
Square is hiring a crypto-focused team.
Jack Dorsey himself has stated numerous times
that he believes in the potential of bitcoin
to be the currency of the internet.
And the Cash App, quarter over quarter is
And so I think that’s a really positive signal.
So Square has chosen to focus on bitcoin.
Microsoft is doing a lot of development work
on top of bitcoin.
But then we see the Japanese ecommerce giant,
Rakuten, they’re developing their own coin
to embed into their rewards.
Ecosystem they do about $9 billion of rewards
compensation through that system every year.
And they have 250 million users.
So there are a number of other corporates
who are experimenting with this idea of a
coin in some form.
Now what I think is interesting, is Facebook
really adds fuel to that fire.
And then the third piece is, we can’t forget
that Facebook is a company in crisis.
Cambridge Analytica, even though that happened
18 months ago, the stock price still hasn’t
There’s a lot of pressure on Facebook to do
something about the perceived privacy violations
it’s engaged in, as well as this risk of centralization.
We saw GDR being implemented in Europe, leading
to huge fines.
That’s just starting to happen.
Here in the US, privacy regulation is big
on the agenda of every regulator and every
Going into the 2020 election, Facebook and
every social media company is a political
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Mm-hmm.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: And so for Facebook, introducing
this new concept, saying it’s somewhat decentralized
to this external foundation they’ve created,
allows them from a crisis communication perspective,
to create a new narrative.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: But it’s still, in some
ways, surveillance capitalism, in the sense
that they know what transactions are going
They are basically the ones watching the blockchain.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: And I think that really to
me, is going to be the most interesting aspect
of what happens here.
To me, this is less about payments and this
is more around data.
We’ve already seen the coupling of your social
data with financial data.
Google, back in 2017, introduced a product
that coupled your credit card transactions
through Google Pay with the data around your
search engine behavior and other data they
gleaned about browsing behavior, which is
really powerful in terms of encouraging retailers
to spend on advertising.
The ability to now couple of that behavioral
data with the spending data.
And so what I think will be interesting, is
Facebook, 2.5 billion users across not just
Facebook, but also Instagram, which is increasingly
focused on direct to consumer sales and becoming
a shopping platform of its own, as well as
WhatsApp has historically been free.
And so the idea that you could now monetize
WhatsApp and enable people to send payments
through it and capture valuable data streams
about their relationships, but also by the
way, enabling governments to censor those
flows of value, depending on the status of
particular users, be interesting.
And then the last piece that to me is fascinating
to watch, Facebook doesn’t have a universal
identity system across its platforms yet.
And so with the introduction of a new payment
mechanism, what they likely will do, is also
roll out a universal ID that links together
someone’s behavior across all of Facebook’s
disparate platforms, links with that transactional
data, and allows them to capture a lot of
really rich information about people, their
network, their social interactions, their
browsing behavior, and how they spend money.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Finally, what do you see
as the biggest risk to the crypto space overall,
in the next five years, 10 years, long run?
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Yeah, I think there are two
main risks in my mind.
The first risk is really regulatory risk.
For this to continue to grow, for this market
to continue to develop, there needs to be
clearer regulatory guidance.
But also within the industry, I’m a fan of
I think a lot of times early industries can’t
rely on regulators to keep pace with what’s
happening, but have to self govern and adopt
standards of behavior, transparency, et cetera.
So I think there are a number of projects
underway in the crypto community that are
trying to create transparency and trying to
create reporting standards, disclosure standards,
for how people engage, that brain trust.
I think one of the big things here is investor
A lot of it was lost in 2017 and 2018 when
there was this crazy bubble of just absolutely
ridiculous meritless projects raising capital
through this new strategy called an ICO or
initial coin offering.
Many of those have now lost 95% or more of
their value and have no chance of ever returning
value to investors.
So I think the industry itself, self-policing
a bit more, being a bit more proactive, and
then working collaboratively with regulators
to introduce some new standards that are not
to burdensome, but still provide investor
trust and transparency, I think that’s key.
I think the second component, really again,
is zooming out and looking at the macro environment.
Crypto doesn’t operate in a bubble.
And in the last five years, there have been
periods where crypto is, and bitcoin in particular,
is a risk on asset.
And there have been periods where bitcoin
is a risk off asset.
There are periods where it’s positively correlated
to the S&P 500.
There are periods where it’s negatively correlated.
So it truly is in many ways, an uncorrelated
asset, but it does respond to macro events.
If you look at what’s happening in the world
today from a political perspective, there’s
a lot of political tension, the breakdown
of the European Union and that economic zone
and Brexit are having huge impact.
What’s happening between China and the US
in terms of trade wars is having a huge impact.
You can’t really look at bitcoin in isolation
of these larger macro events.
So there are political events.
There are also economic events happening.
We look at what’s happening here in the US.
The Fed is looking at potentially rate hikes.
We’re looking at inversion of the yield curve
for the first time in a long time.
And then we look at the broader macro scale.
If you’re an allocator looking at the world
today, there’s not a lot of yield out there.
Everything’s overvalued and everything’s overbought.
There’s way too much money and not enough
places to stash it.
You look at the rise of tech startups.
You look at Silicon Valley.
You look at the growth of venture capital
as an asset class.
It’s the perfect indicator to me, or a canary
in the coal mine, if you will, of what’s ahead.
And so I think looking at bitcoin through
that lens, you can start to see how to some
allocators who are looking for a yield, an
asset like that could be extremely attractive
or an environment where they’re looking to
shed risk could be extremely unattractive.
And so for us, it’s very important to keep
an eye on the macro environment, but particularly
what’s happening in the political arena and
what’s happening economically.
$9 trillion of negative yield debt is insane.
It’s absolutely insane.
And so it’s important to put bitcoin in that
context and view it through that lens as well.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: And then also at the end
of the day, making sure that the technology
is matching up with the amount of money that’s
flowing into it.
MELTEM DEMIRORS: But look, at the end of the
day, markets are irrational.
Investors and humans are prone to all sorts
of ideological fallacies.
And so it’s not our job, speculation happens
in all asset classes.
There are bubbles in all asset classes.
There are times when certain asset classes
see crazy amount of inflation or a crazy amount
of speculative growth.
And so I think at the end of the day, there’s
little we can do to keep investors from speculating
on these assets.
After all, a digital currency as bitcoin is
a gambler’s paradise.
And traders love it.
So when volatility seeps out of commodities
market, people come to crypto, because the
vol is there.
When the vol leaves crypto, people go back
to commodities or equities.
Traders are going to get their fix where they
can get it.
And speculation is a large part of our capital
So I don’t think that component’s going to
go away unfortunately.
JUSTINE UNDERHILL: Meltem, thank you so much
for joining us and giving us all of your insights,
and we look forward to having you back on
MELTEM DEMIRORS: Thanks for having me, appreciate
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– Facebook’s proposal to
create its own digital currency
called Libra has gotten a lot of basklash
from global regulators.
– Facebook has burned down
the house over and over.
– It’s been the subject of acidic
U.S. congressional hearings
and France’s finance minister
went so far as to say
that it was an assault
on national sovereignty.
(man speaking foreign language)
Officials in other
countries, including China,
Germany, and Italy has
expressed similar concerns.
Here’s what regulators are worried about.
For one, lawmakers worry
that Libra has the potential
to disrupt the monetary system.
If Libra becomes the currency
for Facebook’s 2.4 billion or so users,
to say nothing of other
companies that might accept it,
it could become a
Libra is going to be what’s called,
in crypto markets, a stablecoin.
It’ll be a pegged currency
that maintains, basically,
a one to one value with the U.S. dollar.
That’s a different model than bitcoin.
Bitcoin trades freely, and
its value is determined
solely upon what people
are willing to pay for it.
To maintain that peg,
the group that will be
governing this currency,
called the Libra Association,
will maintain a reserve.
For every dollar’s worth
of Libra that is created,
one dollar is going to
be put into the reserve.
means that this reserve
could hold billions or
even trillions of dollars’
worth of currencies and
That is a very powerful
tool in capital markets.
If that money got moved
from one currency to another,
it could absolutely upset global markets.
Now, that’s not to say that Facebook
or the Libra Association
is expected to do something
like weaponize these reserves.
However, this is the first
time that, not a government,
but a private company or
group of private companies
would have that kind of power.
– Look, we don’t want it to–
– Facebook and the Libra
Association of companies
backing the project say they are committed
to working with authorities
to achieve a safe,
of the digital currency.
Lawmakers, who are already
looking into Facebook
for a number of other reasons,
are not comfortable with Facebook’s power.
The tech company is battling
scrutiny on multiple fronts,
from its role in elections to privacy
to even antitrust investigations.
– Facebook is dangerous.
They don’t respect the
power of the technologies.
– [Paul] Facebook’s business model,
its role in spreading propaganda,
and its controversial
efforts to rein it in
have infuriated lawmakers.
– We will have to make
very strong commitments
so that people trust us
and we will have to honor
those commitments for a
very long period of time
to earn people’s trust.
– At the core of a lot of the distrust
among governments is that
Facebook has been criticized
for its handling of user data before,
and Libra would create a traceable record
of all its users transactions.
Just imagine a company
being able to combine
your identity, your online habits,
and your spending patterns.
That is an unprecedented ocean of data.
At this summer’s congressional hearings,
Facebook executive David
Marcus said the company
and the Libra Association will keep
the spending data separate
from the user identities.
Lawmakers, of course,
were skeptical of that.
– I have serious concerns
with Facebook’s plans.
– [Paul] Regulator scrutiny
is one of the reasons
Libra’s viability has
been called into question,
and some key companies that
initially backed the project
have ducked out, with
Visa saying its decision
to work with the project in the future
depends on Libra’s ability
to satisfy regulatory expectations.
We’ll have to wait and see if
this scrutiny from regulators
makes Libra stronger
or ends up threatening
its existence altogether.
(dramatic mallet percussion music)
everybody we are here in London today’s at 15 CC for room all I have to say we are here with a very special guy I don’t know everybody of you I think who knows this guy so welcome Roger ver the chairman of the kind of comment very very very much so thanks to stay with us are you glad to be back yeah it’s a very sunny day today is that unusual yeah exactly your eye alright so thanks to eight times very much so let’s just start with some very few questions you know you’re gonna have a debate very soon together with more ever be any friend today afternoon to be imagine together with it so can I get so sometimes I comment I’m looking forward to this it’s about an hour actually by Mayan tempest and then up at the Bitcoin cash wall and show him first hand by using cryptocurrencies just how amazing they are I find that most people that don’t like crypto currencies are the ones that have never tried using it once he’s tried using it and we see how amazing and fast and useful and lovable it is then you become advanced so my goal today is to make Rivini a fan of principal we open we have to say we’re very very open minded to see what is going to happen thanks.thanks about it so another question who else would you like to have animations at futures yeah we just did get supervised to that we two devices new one coming right now today we’re ever be any what about next one so I yeah I think other people enjoy watching the debate more than I enjoyed doing debates what I would like to see and there’s been more than $100,000 pledged the charity of Adam Beck’s choice if he debates dr. Peter Eisen on the Lightning Network I would love to see the debate between Adam back and Peter Eisen on the Lightning Network and again $100,000 worth of a bunny has been offered to be donated to the charity of Adam Beck’s choice if he does that debate and so far he’s have been avoiding that or denying it for not willing to do it come on Adam $100,000 to the charity of your choice to debate dr. Peter rising on the Lightning Network ah what are you scared of if you’re confident in the Lightning Network you can debate them and give $100,000 to the charity of your choice the only reason that you haven’t so far that I can think of is that you know that Lightning Network can’t stand up on its own merits and that’s where you’re avoiding doing the debate there’s no other reason that I can think of so please prove me wrong Adam by about it’s true a true nano questions you know and I’m Timmy gold we talk about futures unbeaten cats can you give yourself some insight about what age will be redeemed in 2019 and what it’s going to be a lot of the future yes so there’s a great exchange in Hong Kong called coin flex that already has big bling cash futures and complex is doing a large amount of volume in fact other goal is to pass bit next in terms of total volume each day so coin flex based on Hong Kong we would love you maybe you cannot say anything in the moment love to offer it at some point on the exchange over Bitcoin calm as well oh good good to know about it good to know good so and of course we’re gonna be pink cash you know there is a very good cash so give me the coin roll we remain daddle stores of value while between cash bukoza is to get them and matter with about it I think people that think that something can be used only as a store value without some other use case or confused and haven’t studied economics so in order for something to be used as a store value it has to have an additional use case outside of only being a store of value so the whole narrative that oh that claims only going to be used to store value that’s a bunch of economic nonsense and so even if you look at it in the world cash has a much bigger market captain Gold’s a bit point poor BTC wants to be gold digital gold and Bitcoin cash wants to be cash for the world the upside is so much more for the quick cash than DC so I’m super bullish on people in cash no matter how you slice that I think that point would be very very interesting today and regarding us about this topic do you think that both cryptocurrency become a frank – will coexist in two different goals they already have been coexisting for over two years now so I think that whether future I think in the future because Bitcoin cash is so much more useful in actual commerce for actual payments I think the market cap in the price of Bitcoin cash will surpass the market price of Bitcoin for in the future we don’t know if that’s going to happen tomorrow or next year the year after but at some point that’s going to have to have dick when cash is so much more useful Bitcoin cash is already the second most popular cryptocurrency in the entire world for payments more than aetherium more than – more than you know like pointing the earth and everything else other than BTC but there’s already more physical shops accepting the coin cash in our physical shops accepting BTC and of the physical shops way more payments happens with Bitcoin cash the b2c I think we’re gonna say to see the same thing happen for online shopping as well in the future what about a seraph item for Bitcoin would you think about that huge fermion it has the name and brand recognition of Bitcoin but it doesn’t have any of the characteristics that made it popular to begin with so I think at some point Bitcoin cash has been surpassed by market share and market adoption and market cap as well and what are the next steps to increase the adoption of the next step sort of makes more more tools to make it easier and easier for more more people to use it as money we built a fantastic example that over its freed optic coin calm anyone can get some free Bitcoin cash without having to do hardly anything at all on chain right there directly to their wallet but no permission either from anybody sadly that’s no longer possible on the thing that everybody’s calling didn’t win today because it’s big quite a name only the big bling cash is the one that actually made everybody excited about the crunch from 2009 until 2015 the cash has those economic characteristics fingers crossed of course and so for example you know where are the next objectives for the team you know the objectives yes to make it soft real problems for real people in three people’s lives if Bitcoin cash or cryptocurrencies are more useful than PayPal or Visa or Bank of America nobody’s gonna switch so we have to make big win cash and any cryptocurrency better than the traditional financial alternatives that people have out there and not just a little bit better they have to be a lot better otherwise people aren’t gonna bother to switch also really to this because it’s very important to whatever projects based on the beat can catch blockchain that you are more interesting all siffredi do math about the one I’m really excited about right now is we have anonymous fair share of tokens on big blank cash they can receive dividend payments right there on change so in human history we’ve had dividends and we’ve had anonymous bearer shares we’ve never have anonymous bear shares that can also receive dividend payments so imagine tokenizing anything and then paying the dividend payments right there on chain to anybody in every wolf buddy worldwide doesn’t matter young or old black or white you know rich or poor between cashes for everybody and this anonymous fair share is the dividend payments it’s such a big deal so if you’re not aware of it go on YouTube and search for bitcoin cash dividend payments and there’s some videos explaining it I think it’s one of the most exciting new inventions in all cryptocurrency in the last couple of years it’s very interesting and you know a last point recently there’s no memory there’s the garage yeah as a new ceiling Roger the company have been as you know people determine of the project that you are cooperating for every marine oh yeah yeah we’re married exactly so what we gonna checks back with this new appointment and with these new people new and stiffer rocks what name very common project that way with both of us at the helm here we expect to make movie even faster and build even more tools and board option and we have a lot of really big enough announcements about fiscal jobs tens of thousands of this push ups it’ll be accepting between cash and cash custodians for payment by physical shops in the real world and in large part that’s thanks to Stefan trust in his activity so what I have to say Roger thanks for your time good luck to you and Steve for me nice to say French is better for autonomy as presenter grew that’s all thank you very much we see if you wanted black to out anything get your free Bitcoin kashyap free Bitcoin calm it’s easy okay let’s do let’s have a check it to about it thank you have a good day bye bye bye guys